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Interview by Helena Pohlandt-McCormick, Johannesburg, 8 June 1995.
Suspension points in this interview and in any quotes extracted from this interview indicate a pause or break in the flow of conversation.
Ellipses in square brackets indicate text omitted.
At the time of the interview, Patience Tshetlo, born in 1932, was 63 years old and the mother of two daughters who were going to school in
Soweto during the 1976 uprising. The younger of the two was an active participant in demonstrations and youth action until her parents sent
her to her grandfather in Pietersburg in July of 1977 to keep her away from the unrest and its consequences. Patience Tshetlo completed
eight grades of school, and worked as a nanny and a cook in Johannesburg. She has kept an extensive collection of newspaper clippings and
memories of the uprising.
Patience Tshetlo:
It was on the 16th, on Wednesday when it started. My daughter, she is the one you spoke to this morning, she is the one she was attending
that school, where it started, at Phefeni.
HP-M:
At Phefeni high school?
Patience:
Yes, yes, at Phefeni high school, they were there.
HP-M:
How old was she?
Patience:
She was born 1958 … oh ja, on, she was born on March [hesitates], March 25.
HP-M:
What's her name?
Patience:
It's Loretta … Loretta Busisiwe Tshetlo.
HP-M:
Do you have any more children?
Patience:
Yes, I've got my son, firstborn, and then Loretta, and the other daughter, she was also a scholar that time, she was really involved. She
nearly got to exile. But she … in 1977, June ['76?], they closed the school, and they opened on July ['77?]. Oh it was so terrible, they
were fighting there, they couldn't attend school … in '77, in July, ja, later. And then the school they closed until such time
they were reopened. I even send them to Pietersburg, because it was terrible here.
HP-M:
Which school did you send them to in Pietersburg?
Patience:
No, they were just staying … until the riot is over here.
HP-M:
And so how old was your second daughter?
Patience:
The second daughter was born in 1961, yes. Is Thobekile [spells].
HP-M:
Was she also at Phefeni high school?
Patience:
No, she was still in higher primary. But she is the one, she was really … . You see, this Loretta, she is afraid. This one was so brave.
They even went to … they took them to … . You know, the school children made a date to go to John Vorster to take out those students
[in detention] who had been arrested. She came late, four o'clock, she was so tired. She went to bed straight. She didn't tell me anything.
HP-M:
When was that?
Patience:
It was July, when the other students were arrested … '76, '76. She told me in the morning that they were in John Vorster … they went
right in John Vorster Square and then they locked them inside. Until such time, I don't know how many hours, and then they … sjambokked
[whipped] them, they mustn't come back anymore.
HP-M:
Did they travel on their own to Johannesburg?
Patience:
With a train, ja. Because after … the train were blocked at New Canada, ja. They [usually? unclear] took the students off,
so that they can't come here to John Vorster that time … mhmhm.
HP-M:
That was in July … ?
Patience:
Ja, it was in July.
HP-M:
Was she actually arrested?
Patience:
No, they were just going in John Vorster. There were a lot of them. To go … forced to go inside, so that they can take the other one who
were arrested. They were not arrested. She was not arrested. Ja. But she was the one, she was involved in this. She was staying …
they usually send them in school, to go to that school, tell them that at this time, this time, they must go, and do this and this, the SRC
[Student Representative Council]. Mhmhmh.
HP-M:
Was she also involved before that?
Patience:
No, that time, that time. Ja, if I didn't send them to Pietersburg, she wouldn't be here, she would be in exile. Because she even told
me that they have told them, she doesn't know when it will be, but they are going to take them to exile …
HP-M:
Who is "they"?
Patience:
Those … SRC, they were in charge in schools. Mhmhmhm. She didn't know [how that would happen].
HP-M:
Did she want to go?
Patience:
Yes, but she was crying, telling me that she will miss me, but she doesn't know when she will go. And then, when they open, '77, July, they
didn't go, because it was such a riot. Too much children were dying there, ja. And then the schools were closed. Ja, then I
sent them to Pietersburg, their father sent them to Pietersburg.
HP-M:
Do you have family in Pietersburg?
Patience:
Yes, my father in law was there. Ja.
HP-M:
Did you send all the children … ?
Patience:
No, two of them. Loretta and Thelma, because the younger… the brother was working at that time, and the youngest was born in 1969, she
was six, I think, that time. She was still young. There were only these two who were attending school that time. I think because we sent them
to Pretoria, to my sister in law, to arrange the journey. I think they stayed there for one month, July. And then August, they went to
Pietersburg to stay with their grandfather. They stayed for [pauses] they stayed for the whole season of … August, September, October …
until next year. The schools were reopened. And then they come back.
HP-M:
So they didn't go to school in Pietersburg?
Patience:
No, they didn't. They came back and attend school here … again. It was [a] little better that time, 1978 now, it was 1978. They weren't, they didn't be angry with me because they wanted to go. Mhmhmh.
HP-M:
Do you think they were frightened by what was happening?
Patience:
Mhmhm [affirmative]. It was terrible. You know, that time, there was … . The other time now, the hostel dwellers were taking the [unclear] this children, then they are … the hostel in Mzimhlope.
[migrant workers living in the hostels refused to go along with the stay aways that the students called for and therefore drew the ire of the students. They, in turn, retaliated against alleged student attacks on the hostels]
Now they came to the houses, killing the people, specially in Mzimhlope location, mhmhmh. They were killing people there … [unclear]. Little far away from Mzimhlope. But in the other day, they said—in the morning—they said, oooh, they are just here in Meadowlands. The following [neighboring] location to us. They said they are there, they are coming to … it is there where I was frightened. I only took my children's birth certificates and my ID. This one was still too young. Norman. So I took little things. I had thought I was going to Jabulani, the other location where my sister was, elder sister. When we were there at Chrissie station, we got that … the taxis, all the taxis from Soweto were biding [?] there, there was long cue there …
HP-M:
To get out?
Patience:
To go to Mzimhlope. Where the hostel dwellers were. They were kidnapping girls … the girls were full that hostel. They were going there to take out the girls there.
HP-M:
So they were taking girls to the hostel?
Patience:
Mhmhmhmh [affirmative], when they got in your house, they found the boys, they killed the boys, and then they took the girls.
HP-M:
And those were the people from the hostels?
Patience:
Mhmhmh [affirmative]. So when I saw the taximen there, I thought no, they can't come now, so I went back. We were shivering. We didn't sleep that day. Because I heard somebody knocking the door. When I opened the door I saw the young men with the white doek [cloth]. They were … they were not hostel dwellers, they were Soweto youth. They were saying you must boil water, and put sugar in. So I … it was about eleven o'clock. I started to make fire, and then I put the water with big pot, so that, when they come, we must pour them with this water. Mhmhmhmh.
HP-M:
Who were these people from the hostel?
Patience:
I think they were, those who are staying in the hostel. Hostel dwellers. Mhmhmhmh. They were the ones. They were the ones. You will see them here in the paper. That fighting, was fighting there. Until … Mangosutho [Buthelezi] came here to make peace with them and Soweto people. They were workers [mostly from Zululand] they were working but they were staying at hostel.
HP-M:
Why did they attack the houses?
Patience:
They said the children … when they went to work … because there were many stay aways. So they were going to work, they didn't stay away at [from] work. The children went and burned the—and burned the hostel while they were away. When they came back, ooooh, it was enough. They said they are going to kill all those youths in Soweto.
HP-M:
So they came from house to house?
Patience:
Mhmhmh [affirming], house to house in Mzimhlope, it was terrible… . We are far to that location, we are in other location. Mzimhlope, and then Phomolong, Phefeni, Dube, Meadowlands and then my location, Mofolo North.
HP-M:
But you were trying to go to your sister's house?
Patience:
Mhmhmh [affirmative] because it was coming… the riot… it wasn't [only in] Mzimhlope now, they were coming towards the other locations.
HP-M:
And the children who were coming to your house with the white doeks?
Patience:
No, they were just knocking, that they were telling us that they [the hostel dwellers] are coming now to kill us here, we must boil water and put sugar in. When they attack us we must just pour them with that syrup, mhmhmh, so that maybe they can run away. Ooooh, but it was terrible, I didn't sleep that day. I was shivering.
HP-M:
And you had your girls with you?
Patience:
Mhmhmh [affirming], with my husband, was there also, we were all there. House to house they were knocking that everybody must boil the water. But they didn't come to our location. That was better.
HP-M:
Do you remember the day of June sixteenth?
Patience:
It started early in the morning, but we heard about it, it was about two o'clock when it spread to our location, mmh. It was terrible. My little daughter, came with a … sweets, a packet of sweets. They were starting to loot … the trucks. Everything was burning now that time. And it was worst during the night. The other location in front of Dobson Street … oohoohooh … it was so many guns there the whole night, but they didn't find anybody. I think they were taking those who were shot there. Because we didn't see anyone there… .
HP-M:
So you think the police were taking the bodies away?
Patience:
Yaah, mmh, immediately, because you couldn't find anybody. I remember, it was, because they were burning the bottle store, they were looting beers everything. My older son was working in bottle store in Phefeni. When it started, because they were so near, these children were starting… . They just closed the bottle store and then he left his nice shoes there, he just went with the shoes he was working with. The following day the bottle store was burnt. It was closed. And then they came to our bottle store there was a bottle store at Mofolo North. They looted there. I tried to go. I said no, let me go and get beer for my husband. When I went, I was just near,
ooohhooh, I went back. I said, oh, the policemen will shoot me there. I went back, I didn't go inside.
You know what happened in White City with looting? A husband and wife, they went there. He left his two twins at home. They went and loot. It was in China … they call that shop China. And then they loot meat, they went home and then they came back… . You see the fridges, big fridges, and then they went there, the fridge was locked inside. They died there … inside the fridge. And nobody noticed them, where were they. Until, I don't know who came. The owner of … came and found them. They were frozen inside… . They left the twins at home.
HP-M:
Looting?
Patience:
… Because everybody was passing our street with cases, others with … I said, no let me go and try. Oooh, I was so afraid, I just stand by there and then I said, oooh, I will go inside … maybe my bad luck and the police will come and shoot me. I went home without nothing. [laughs]
HP-M:
It's probably better?!
Patience:
… It's better. Mmmh.
HP-M:
And lots of people were looting?
Patience:
Mmmh, everybody was drunk in the location. There was so plenty of liquor, hot stuff. Oooh, even the children, maybe seven years, eight years, they were drunk. Mmmh. All the bottle stores in Soweto were… . Only the bottle store left it was jabulani. Naledi, every bottlestore it was burnt down. They were looted first and then they burn it.
HP-M:
Why do you think they attacked the bottle stores?
Patience:
Because they said it was, I don't know, the council, administration … jaaa, yes… . Because our bottle store they never built it up [again] till today. They were attacking those buildings they know that it was for government. Because they even when to UBC, where there was municipal offices, they burnt it down. I don't know, even schools … oooh, it was terrible.
HP-M:
What do you think of that, of burning the schools?
Patience:
No, the schools… . Because our children didn't go anywhere now to school. The windows were … Other schools they didn't build it, even today they are still there. The windows are wrecked, the doors … , there are no doors … everything. Mmmmh.
HP-M:
To this day?
Patience:
Mmmmh. That's why … , when was that paper. They march-frog [frog-marched—unclear] the teachers in Lesania [sic, Lenasia], the school there, with broken windows, they say the teachers they mustn't come back anymore. They march-frog [sic] them to the gate, then they remain inside, they say, until the school is built they won't get in the premises. Because they have been reporting that they are feeling cold, the windows are not fixed up. Mmmmh.
HP-M:
That's damage from 1976?
Patience
Jaaa, '76 but… they repair it, but not of all. Not all of them, the school. Mmmh.s
HP-M:
So tell me more about June 16, the actual day, the first day.
Patience:
The first day. The first day wasn't, … it was only looting and the first child who died, Hector, in Phefeni. The time the crowd was going to Orlando. That's why they were burning, because these policemen, administration police shot Hector. It was not the SAP who shot Hector. They were police for municipal [municipality] at that time. That's why they [were] angry, burning everything of municipal at that time. Mmmh.
HP-M:
And on that morning you had sent, your children went to school … ?
Patience:
Yes, they went to school.
HP-M:
Did they tell you beforehand that something might happen?
Patience:
No, they didn't tell us anything. They didn't tell us anything. Only we saw … because we are not far from that… . Mofolo Village, Dube. And then there … we saw the fire was burning that time, and then they came home, they said, … [there was a] riot. They were marching and then the police shot the—shot them. And then it was … went on. They started Morris Isaacson, collecting the children until Phefeni. There were so many now, going to Orlando Stadium. They wanted to ask about Afrikaans. Because the Afrikaans was the … everything was being taken with Afrikaans. They wanted to say, … they must take their things with English, jaa. They wanted to go there and just make the rally, and say about—and then they shoot them. They didn't even said anything, … reach that place. Orlando Stadium.
HP-M:
And when you saw the fire what did you think?
Patience:
And my … Loretta came. Loretta came first and told me that they were marching to Orlando Stadium and then the police have shoot [them] and then they have killed the administration police. You know what they did, the—these boys? They burnt him and then they put him in the dirt box. Mmmh. The helicopter, we … . It was the first time to saw the helicopter. We didn't know the helicopter, but we first saw the helicopter that day, because it was round in that place of Phefeni, was looking for that policeman, and didn't find him, until four o'clock on the afternoon … in the dirt box.
HP-M:
There were actually two people who were killed, one of whom was a social worker?
Patience:
Jaa, it was social worker. They killed him first in White City where they were from Morris Isaacson. And then the second one, it was Hector. And then the third one it was the policeman, and then the fourth one … I don't know who was it. There were four who were killed. Because others, the other lady, white lady, and black lady, they just took them out of the car, they didn't kill them until they were rescued by police. Mmmh.
HP-M:
What do you think of the violence on both sides?
Patience:
Aie-sh, ai, ai. You know if the police didn't shoot, there wouldn't be any riot, ja. Oooh, that time now the children, even the small one like this, they were so, you couldn't go, they could kill and burn you … even the small ones.
HP-M:
What did you as a parent think?
Patience:
Oooh, is better because I didn't have a boy … that time. Because maybe it would … you know the other parents, their children were lost that time, they don't know where are they. Maybe if I had a boy, a little boy of 16/17, I wouldn't know where he is now.
HP-M:
People went either into exile or they were taken by the police?
Patience:
Mmmh. You know the other old man … in the Indian location, there was another man, who was looking for medicine there … at the mountain, he saw the helicopter. Because they were afraid of helicopter, he just hide in the hole there. He saw the helicopter … was coming on top of that mountain, then he saw the policemen, they took out the bags, you know, these bags, for rubbish, black. He hide there and then the helicopter went out. He was so afraid, he said, maybe the helicopter will come again. He stayed there—maybe for half an hour—then he went out. He said, he can't go home, he want to see what was that parcel there, when he … . He saw the [school] tunic for children, the children in the hole there. They were dumping them.
HP-M:
The children?
Patience:
Mmmh. Because, you know, they were scattered all over, because they didn't want them to … so that they can't be numbered—how many children were dead … mmmh.
HP-M:
And who is this man?
Patience:
No, he was the other man in the Lenasia location there… . Just someone. I hear, but with another women, he say that the other man told them. He saw a terrible thing. The children with tunics, they were dumped there.
HP-M:
Did anybody try and find them?
Patience:
Oooh, could you go there?
HP-M:
No!
Patience:
Aaah, ah ha ha, you couldn't. Everybody was afraid. It was terrible on the sixteenth day of June. Sixteen and 17 it was terrible. And then it started to spread to other locations. But Soweto… .
HP-M:
How long had you been in Soweto?
Patience:
Fifty-eight. From '58, we got that house. Loretta was two months.
HP-M:
And your husband? What does he do?
Patience:
He was a policeman.
HP-M:
Oh, he was a policeman?
Patience:
Mmmh, he was a policeman, but in 1972, he resigned. It was like, because they would kill him. Because they burned the police houses. It's better because he was no more a policeman.
HP-M:
What did he do?
Patience:
He was working at Protea Holdings, he was working there.
HP-M:
Do you remember why he resigned from being a policeman?
Patience:
I … he resigned because he wasn't happy. Once they were working with … they gave them heavy job, you know, to guard a … . Maybe somebody was there [to be alone? unclear]. All the night, on the veld, you guard the car there, being alone. But he worked from 1954 up to 72. Mmmh.
HP-M:
Do you remember where he was stationed?
Patience:
In Jabulani. He worked in—first he worked in Brixton, and then Meadowlands, and then Jabulani, that is where he resigned.
HP-M:
Did you talk with your children about what was happening?
Patience:
Mmmh, because I said you mustn't go there. They said—I said you mustn't go, because the police will kill you. They said: "what about those who have, who have been killed? They are always, they are also … somebody's children. Even [if] we are dead, we don't care." You know the children that time, they didn't care anything. Even [if] they can die, they didn't care anything. And this one, Tsietsi, you know him…?
HP-M:
Tsietsi Mashinini?
Patience:
Mmmh, did you see him? You know he was a nice guy. The time the police were looking for him, they couldn't find him, because he was like a girl. He wears the clothes for girls, shoes, and just pass through the police. They couldn't see him. Yes… . Because now, they … one, they were, they said, if somebody can get Tsietsi … . I don't know how much they offer, I don't remember… . It's when he went to exile.
HP-M:
They tell the same story about Seth Mazibuko.
Patience:
Yes, Seth Mazibuko was in class with Loretta, same class. It's where he [she] told me that Seth was always telling them that there was going to be a march because they don't like this Afrikaans. Mmmh. He was a classmate.
[… ]
He was still young. Maybe he was 19, 20 that time maybe, when he was in Robben Island. Because they were young, even Khotso. Because Mashinini went, and then Khotso took over to Mashinini, Khosto Seathlolo. And then, he went to exile and came back to—he came back at night and went back. And then there was somebody—a spy—the time he came, to, for, for their meeting. They arrested him. Mmmh. And then it was end of them now.
HP-M:
What other stories did your children tell you?
Patience:
Mmmh, they were out in township and they were at stadium, in amphitheater that time. I went whilst Tsietsi was still in, … there was a rally there. He said, we must come, all the parents. Mmmh. And then they took the stage, councilors, that time, there were still [Urban Bantu-] councilors, they took the stage, they asked to speak. After that, when they speak, Tsietsi, he said, we must, all of us in Soweto must leave their houses. And we must go and make the councilors stay there, so that they will [know]—where they are going to get money for rent. Mmmh. He was [a] brave somebody, he was brave. Mmmh. He was brave, and then … , it was—who was the councilor that time who?—I don't remember… .
HP-M:
Was there any other leadership that you were aware of?
Patience:
No. I only know those, Tsietsi, Seth and Khotso, jaa, they were three. The other I … .
HP-M:
Describe the behavior of the police to me during that time, and before. There was always a lot of tension?
Patience:
Mmmh. Oooh. No there was this policeman. He is dead now. It was … Hlubi. He is the one who killed a lot of children… . a black policeman. There … in the location called Mofolo Village. The children were going to—I don't know—to march, and then they were called down by those policemen. He shoot, shoot the children there at Tshabalala store. Mmmh.
HP-M:
What was his name?
Patience:
I only know his surname… . It was Hlubi. And then, the other time, there were, somebody was going to be buried, a student. And then they … , when they went out from Avalon [cemetery] they told the driver to go straight at Hlubi's house in Rockville, but he wasn't there. He wasn't staying there anymore. He was staying, somewhere in—I don't know—Springs or where, he wasn't staying at home anymore. But, I think for the one year, [he] wasn't staying there. The other day he came at night at about one o'clock. When he came there was somebody—I don't know who were they—or they were students, or who. They were hiding at his house. When he came they shoot him and he was dead.
HP-M:
And so they were waiting for him?
Patience:
Mmmh. For one year they were guarding there, waiting for him. Because he, oohooh, he was selfish that one. He really killed the children.
HP-M:
And other police?
Patience:
The other police … maybe, this white policeman, but he was the one who was sent with the black policemen. Mmmh. The white police I don't know.
HP-M:
Do you yourself remember any encounters with the police?
Patience:
No, no, no, no. Because they did not come at my house to search. My friend, … she also had these newspapers [collected reports about the uprising], his son was involved in this. They came to search for him. And then he burned them off. Because if they could find this … people would be arrested that time.
HP-M:
So there were lots of people who were being arrested?
Patience:
Mmmh. There were a lot of people. His son was arrested … was arrested. So you couldn't just go to police, we were afraid that time, even to talk, you couldn't talk anything, unless you really know that somebody you are talking to. Because there were spies and everything.
HP-M:
So who did you talk to?
Patience:
Oh, my sisters, my cousin, my cousin's daughter. My cousin's daughter is still in exile, even now.
HP-M:
She never came back.
Patience:
No, she never came back… . [She] is in America.
HP-M:
What were people saying, especially your generation?
Patience:
Oooh, the mothers were so sad, about this thing. Others were furious. Others they were saying, oh these children, they are naughty, how can they do this thing. Because we are near to the station, Kwesi [?] station. One day, they said—it was a stay away. And parents went to work. You know down in the platform, these children were there, at seven o'clock in the morning with [belts? unclear] they were hitting fathers, and they were running coming back. Is where they were furious, these children, there is no respect, these children, how can they hit us. And these children said: "If we are telling you that you are not going to work, you must obey us, because we are fighting for you. Because you are cowards. Because you are old now, you didn't even do a thing."
They called us, we are cowards, we are afraid of this… . They were right. They were right, because you couldn't even say a thing [red? unclear] even you are waiting at work, we are getting that lesson, you couldn't say a thing. Special [especially?] I started to work at the … here at Hillbrow, I was looking after a little girl, five years old. You could work in the day time and then, you stay in again, they come at two, maybe one o'clock, in the morning, they will just say thank you. You go and then, wake up again in the morning six o'clock and come and work. We were coward, because we couldn't say, "No, you can't go, I can't work for the whole day and whole night." So the children they were telling us because we are coward, you couldn't do a thing.
HP-M:
So you agreed with them?
Patience:
Yes.
HP-M:
What did your husband say?
Patience:
Auh, my husband used to shout these children, because he was, you know how are the policemen. He doesn't agree with all this thing. He didn't want them to do this. Mmmh. That's why they were scared even this … , Thelma didn't tell me, they were in John Vorster, because [s]he was afraid of his father. She usually told me everything, but not his father.
HP-M:
And you, did you keep it secret?
Patience:
Yes, I didn't tell him [laughter]. I didn't tell him. You know, about myself, you know. I like this. If I was still a young kid, I will also be there. Mmmh.
HP-M:
Why do you think you agreed with them?
Patience:
I agreed with them because they were doing the right thing. Because we can't speak to anyone, they can't listen to us. Even you can say, who? To whom you could speak that time, mmmh? I remember I was attending school at Harrismith. We were taking Hygiene with Afrikaans. It was started already in 1948. We were taking the things with Afrikaans. But to whom could we speak? [unclear] … I didn't even know Afrikaans, because I was born in Natal. I was reading English. I only started Afrikaans Standard 5 and Standard 6. With Afrikaans how could you read?
HP-M:
Where were you born?
Patience:
In Harrismith, but when we were at Harrismith, it's eighteen miles from Harrismith to go to Natal. And then starts the border of Natal. About five kilometers from the border. We were near Freestate, but in Freestate. In Natal I mean.
HP-M:
So you grew up speaking Zulu?
Patience:
Mmmh. We speak. I was learning Zulu, but I was—my father was Mosotho. But that side is only Zulu, there is no Sotho. So I learnt Zulu. Even I came to Harrismith, I couldn't change to Sotho. And then, after, you know we were so poor that time, we didn't have anything. Our parents didn't even teach us because they didn't have. That's why I said to these children, they are doing right things. Because we didn't get education. Because in our district it was only Standard 4, you could pass Standard 4 and there was no [unclear] … until you can go to boarding school, where will you get money for boarding school. Mmmh.
HP-M:
So your parents were farmers?
Patience:
No, is … my grandfather's land there. We were not under Afrikaans [fate? unclear]. You know this lands for people, jaa. [Homelands?] Jaa, we were staying there. My grandfather bought that land, mmmh, my mother's father. So we stayed there. But there was no money, nooo … [taxes? unclear] my father was working, getting 1 pound 10, is three Rand a week to another man there, in that homeland.
HP-M:
Where was he working?
Patience:
If he can work … at Faraday, jaa. Was another man there, Mr. Davies.
HP-M:
On the farm?
Patience:
Yes, on the farm. They were plowing potatoes, and then he gave them three Rand a week.
HP-M:
And you went to school in the same area?
Patience:
Yes, until Standard 4, and then after Standard 4 I went to Harrismith, and passed my Standard 6 and then I went to St. Hilda's in Ladysmith for domestic science [unclear] for two years. I took the cheapest because there was no money. My father used to—I know this—goats, what do they say, … is wool, like sheep, but they are goats with this big long hair. He used to send me to school with that. He'll cut the wool on April for the session up to June, and then in September again.
HP-M:
So he would sell the wool?
Patience:
Yes, he was selling.
HP-M:
And then he sent you to school with that money?
Patience:
Yes.
HP-M:
Were there other children?
Patience:
Oh they didn't go to school. Because I was last born. My sister didn't go, stopped at Standard 4. And my second sister and my third sister, they only up to Standard 4.
HP-M:
You were the last born?
Patience:
Jaa, the last born. So he decided to teach me, but he didn't have anything.
HP-M:
So did you work when you finished school?
Patience:
Yes, but there was no work. There was no work. Because if you go to domestic science, you must be a teacher and learn domestic science so that you can go and maybe [teach] in high schools. So that one is just to go and work in domestic science, or learn to sew, or knit, everything.
HP-M:
You just learnt domestic science so that you could work?
Patience:
Mmmh, mmmh, for two years, so that I can work. The thing I worked, it was cooking. For all my life, I cooked for the other one for fourteen years, and other one for ten years, after I have left the Domestic Science. In suburbs.
HP-M:
You were cooking here in Johannesburg?
Patience:
Yes, [I] was cooking for the big [unclear] metal [unclear] company for fourteen years. It was a company, Metals [unclear] Group, so I was in the canteen, cooking for whites. I was the supervisor there. Mmmh. That little education of two years—better than nothing! [laughs]
HP-M:
And then you were working in Hillbrow for the family?
Patience:
I was still working in the flats here. I was still from school. But I didn't look for the work for a long time. I think it was one year and then I went to … worked there, until I got this job. Where I was cooking. That's the work I want, I liked.
HP-M:
It must have been a little bit freer than working for a family?
Patience:
Yes, jaa. It was very … they were good, they were good … [regular hours,] eight o'clock to four. Until we were here [unclear] … they were giving us money for transport. It was better.
HP-M:
And your own children?
Patience:
Aaah, they didn't … Loretta stop at Standard Eight. And, Thelma. They are no profession. They are working at shops. Loretta is working at Topics. And Thelma is working at [another boutique? unclear?] shop. In Westgate … other side of Roodepoort. They are working there in that center.
HP-M:
And are they married now?
Patience:
Ooh, Thelma is married. Loretta is not married. But has got the little boy of ten.
HP-M:
So if you think back about these events in '76, what do you think was the most important part of it? Why was it important?
Patience:
It was important for education. They wanted good education because there was no more education, because the more things they were doing in Afrikaans. Loretta's books they are planned with Afrikaans, new books we were buying there, with Afrikaans, mmh. And then I think they said enough is enough, now. We are going to fight. I think … is better because they fight, because it wouldn't be like this [now], you see. Because Nelson Mandela was in jail there was no one who was fighting. Because all people they were in jail, others in exile. So the children took over. I think it was good, because we will still be there where Mr. Mandela left it.
HP-M:
Do you think it was the beginning of …
Patience:
… of freedom, of the change. Mmmh. oooh, it took long time. We don't even see if is freedom now, because is still, I don't know, is not yet freedom.
HP-M:
Why do you say that?
Patience:
Aieh, because they are fighting now. The IFP they don't go with others. I don't think is going to [be] alright in Natal if … [they are fighting] in Natal. I was there in December, my sister was [80], who died in December, there is a place there where parcel, the bad … they say is gone by. oooh, is terrible, they are dying there. In that location. We are better here in Transvaal.
HP-M:
Have things changed in Soweto?
Patience:
Yes, is changed, but the criminals, aie … , or because they haven't got the jobs. I think is because of that. You know the Soweto children, they leave the school, they don't work, I don't know what is going to happen. What … Mr. Mandela, what he is going to do with these children.
HP-M:
Which children do you mean?
Patience:
No, the 18-years, 17 … 16, 17, 18, because they are stealing the cars. That's their work. And the police shoot them. They die every day. I don't know what they can do with them, or maybe they can send them back to school, with force. Mmmh.
HP-M:
How do people talk about June 16 now?
Patience:
They don't even talk now, they can't… . They don't even remember now. They can't talk anymore.
HP-M:
Nobody talks about it?
Patience:
No, no. It's not like those years when Mr. Mandela was still in Robben Island.
HP-M:
Then people talked about it?
Patience:
Yes, they were talking there. They said the children tried to take over to Mandela. Others they were talking, they said children is better, but others they didn't want [them], they didn't want [this].
HP-M:
That surprises me … you said it was the beginning of …
Patience:
… of freedom. Now. About the sixteenth of June? No.
HP-M:
Why do you think that is?
Patience:
I don't know. They are talking this freedom now. And the killings. You know, the people from Soweto, they have suffered too much. I think that is why they have forgotten the sixteenth. Before election last year, in the trains there were a lot of people dead, they have been killed. I think that's why they can't even remember the June sixteenth.
HP-M:
Because of the violence …
Patience:
Jaa, violence. Yes. Oooh, we are near the station. We used to see the train when is coming. Seven o'clock train at the night. We'll hear the cries there, when we go the train is getting to platform. People they are thrown there in the railway line, stabbed, shot, I think that's why they forgot the June sixteenth now. Because there is other things which is following … violence.
HP-M:
Do you think people should remember it?
Patience:
Yes, … they must remember it. Because, you know, Soweto, they didn't even know it overseas. Did you know Soweto?
HP-M:
Yes, I was here…
Patience:
Oooh, you knew it. But others they didn't know Soweto. They only knew Soweto about these riot-children.
[… ]
… They [the whites, the outside world] didn't know it, Soweto. Only they started to know it with this, so that's why I said the children, they did a right thing. Because even in overseas now, they know Soweto… . That's why Mr. Mandela is saying, … what is [he] calling them? … "brave lions"—I don't know, what is he calling these children.
HP-M:
What is the most important thing for children to learn? What did you try and teach your children?
Patience:
At school? … from life? To respect … respect people. You know these children now, they don't respect. Now in Soweto, they, this thing, Mandrax, it is too much in Soweto now. You know my last born, this one was born in 1969, he is in jail here, in Johannesburg, prison, because he leave the school in the age of 16. It's a trouble son. But his father was policeman. He tried to caution. But he can't listen, because outside the bad friends, bad company, they give them this drugs and dagga. So even you can tell your children they must be like this, like this… . She can't even hear you. Aaie, they can hear that time you are talking. But when is outside there, they can't even remember what you said to him… . Even at school, they are carrying guns now, the children, at school.
HP-M:
Do you think it's different for boys and girls?
Patience:
Aah, they are selfish. Girls of now, you know, they are, they are smoking dagga also. I had the other woman on Thursday, I went to clinic with her, the other girl with the short dress, told me, that this one is my daughter, is a daughter… . Thelma's daughter, she likes school. She is fourteen, she is in Form 3.
HP-M:
And she likes to go to school.
Patience:
Yes.
HP-M:
Does she stay with you?
Patience:
No, she was staying with me, now she stays with her mother.
HP-M:
They all live in Soweto?
Patience:
Yes, in Dobsonville, in other location. They like school, they go, in numbers … we don't know if is going to change maybe.
HP-M:
What did you do to support them? Your children didn't stay in school for very long after June sixteenth.
Patience:
No, but now this Thelma she wants to go to school. Maybe she's going to take the night school. Jaa. The night school. You know I always tell them, that if, even now I can go to school. I always tell them that. Even now I can go to school. Why they can't go to school. It's not too late to learn. Yes. They must push themselves, and, they mustn't just working, you must have profession. Then you can know that you are somebody. Mmmh.
HP-M:
When people talk about the children of Soweto, some of them were 6 years old, some of them were 19 or 20. How do you think your people think about what is a child as compared to an adult? how would you … if you had to explain to me what is a child, what age group would you think of, when do you start talking about an adult, or youth—I think she heard me as saying when do you start talking to them as an adult?
Patience:
When, maybe is fourteen years. Even [if ] is ten years. You know this Loretta's son. He [you] can talk and tell them that they mustn't do this and this. While they are still young so that they can catch it. Yes. I think is better when they are ten to upwards. And they must go to church. You know the child who goes to church is difficult to do something wrong. Mmmh. Because they are afraid, … of making things, mistakes… . Because I always teach them, tell them that, if they disobey, you know I tell them the stories that if they disobey, God, if you are, maybe insulting somebody, God is putting the breek [unclear] When they are three years insult somebody, God will put a breek [unclear] until you maybe are fifteen, it will be up there. When you die you can't see, even your mother, that side. You know you must tell them the story which, it will make them fear. They mustn't just be loose.
HP-M:
But if you remember your own children, they went against your husband's wishes and your wishes.
Patience:
Mmmh, I think is these riots. Because they were coming nicely. Because Thelma [I] even sent her in Harrismith to go and learn there … mmmh. They were good children. This riot, then … they were roaming about, you see. If the children they don't go to school, they roam about and then they are pregnant, you see. And then they can't go to school. Thelma was married while she was young. Maybe she was 24. Mmmh.
HP-M:
And she has one child?
Patience:
Fourteen years and five years … and six years. She's six now. Two daughters. Loretta one. Because she had [this] child in with riots. That time of riots in 77. She had a son, and then he got accident when he was six years.
HP-M:
And what happened?
Patience:
There were ten children in the car. They hit in head-on collision, they got the accident. He died there. He will be eighteen [now]. Oooh, he was so bright that one. I knew he was going to be something.
HP-M:
And she had him just after the … ?
Patience:
… the riot of Soweto.
HP-M:
That is a sad story.
Patience:
HP-M:
[Newspaper clippings—question about the children.] … and you said it was dangerous to have these?
Patience:
Yes, you know I chucked them in the wardrobe, underneath my wardrobe, so that they can't get them… . here is Tsietsi.
HP-M:
Why did you keep these?
Patience:
I said maybe one of my grandchildren… . You know if I knew how to write I would write the history, the story of this thing.
HP-M:
You should… .
Patience:
Oh, I said, maybe my grandchildren one day, they will look the history for this. Mmmh [yes].
HP-M:
You should write some of this down.
Patience:
… how can I write, I don't know where to start. I could write, … if I knew, … I could write. I can't even know.
HP-M:
If you were to write, what would you write about?
Patience:
I will write about this … riot of children. I will write the story and then put the picture of the riot, you know this is hostel, the time they were fighting.
HP-M:
Do you think there were some things that the students did that were not right, that you did not agree with?
Patience:
Yes, … . To burn things, it wasn't right. Especially schools. Because, now what are they going to do, where are they going to learn again? Mmmh. They could do and fight with these people but not schools. I disagree with that.
HP-M:
When I write this down what is on the tape, then you will have begun to write your story… .
Patience:
Aaah, I don't think so. Aie. You know if you write this story, you must know where you start, and then next things follow. so I can't just mix everything… . I don't know the heading, how can I start to write the story? Mmmh. Like those who are writing books. They have got a nice heading to start the books and write and then follow the thing … I don't know… . [it is] too complicated, I can't … . But I can't write it.
HP-M:
I will write what you said on paper, and I will give it to you and then you can reread it.
Patience:
I will ask my children, what happened again, because they still, they were there, mmh. Specially Thelma, I will ask her. [… sister's son was also arrested, in Harrismith, went to school at Wits … works at Bloemfontein … ] … she will tell me when she can get time, and I will bring her here. She will tell you what is what because she still remembers, she was in that … she was there. She was … '61, she was 15 that time, now she is 34.
HP-M:
Do you remember the government investigation, the Cilliè Commission?
Patience:
I remember, but I didn't know anybody who was witness… . They [people] were afraid. You know this cousin's daughter. She left her clothes. They came and collect her, at my house, when they were going into exile, but she is in PAC, she's not in ANC, PAC. It was Azapo. Because that's why she can't come back, because all ANC, they have come back.
HP-M:
… Where is she in America?
Patience:
I don't know. Her mother knows because she once sent a ticket to come and fetch it there that side. Mmmh, she went.
HP-M:
She's never been back?
Patience:
No, since, since, since, she never …
[… ]
Patience:
Others, like Tsietsi, he never had that opportunity to come back. He died. And they said at his funeral: I was black, somebody has killed him but they didn't want any postmortem… . When was it? Before … It was before Mandela went, but they were coming back … when was it, in '90 or '91, when was his funeral. They flew him back to here. We went at Amphitheatre to his funeral.
HP-M:
He was quite sick?
Patience:
… They said, as if he was losing, … . I don't know, he was mad or something. Because the one who told us, he said, he found him in the dirt box, he was picking something as if he was mental case. I don't know.
HP-M:
Do you remember when Steve Biko was killed?
Patience:
No, I don't remember. Seventy-eight? Yes, I know him, and the way they killed him. They took him from there to Pretoria Hospital. Mmmh. You know the people they couldn't talk because that time it was terrible. And the children who died here in John Vorster, there were too many. It's because you know we can't even write down that somebody, so and so, they killed him here, the police, here in John Vorster. Mmmh. If somebody tells you that my son has died here, you see. No Thelma will give you the other stories, the real stories inside, because they were going in there, they know everything.
HP-M:
But you were a mother, and you saw it from the outside? That's also important.
Patience:
Jaa. Because I always asked, "What's going on now today, now today?" Oooh. It was terrible.
Source: Patience Tshetlo, interview by Helena Pohlandt-McCormick, 8 June 1995, tape recording, Johannesburg.
